"A sniper is a marksman who shoots targets from concealed positions or distances exceeding the capabilities of regular personnel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper
well we do that..sure we don't have the mordern range advantage (ie 3x advange) but there is some. much more in a rev war sence.. a better argument is there is no inftrey rifles in AS, as almost every one puts in some sort of upgrade, making it a dmr.
you are thowing out blasticks, or have no insite to them.
1st.. nerfs are very dangures, espicaly @ the speed some groups alow..
heres a nerf vs a dubble wall shiping carton..http://www.youtube.com/user/milsimlabs#p/u/16/Wl_vmicK31Q
they can break ribs, eyes and goggles @ the same time..
1" "anti material" rifle vs monster can
at the speed we shoot bbs, the "softness" in minumal, blunt force truma is blunt force truma.. rember the saying hiting water @ 60mph is like hiting concreat.
2 the bigger you go, the hevery it gets to be effective.. hence you don't see snipers using 8mm bbswe simply cant safely shoot a projectile with a high enuf mass to drag ratio with eunf force to out perform a hoped one
unless personal safety gear is increased most players would likly be restant to buy new goggles, get full face/head protection, cup, neck guard, etc just so a few sniper can get a few feet more range
**opens note book**
"there is no advance in even a .5 8mm over a .3 6mm, lets look @ the numbers shall we
a 6mm has a surface area of 113.1 MM squared, in your .3 bb example thats .00265 grams per MM of surface area a 8mm has a surface area of 201.06 MM squared in your .5BB example thats 0.00248 grams per MM of surface area
so its easy to see that a .3 6mm still has a better mass to drag ratio than a .5 8mm
and lets face it a .3 is about the minimum you should use for sniping. if you look @ a .36 6mm, @ 0.0.318 G/MM squared a comparably 8mm would be .64 grams!
look @ projectile speed @ "standard" fps/energy limits2.8J (550 fps with .2 ), I won't go in to why sniper platforms need to be limited by joules instead of fps, most should know that by now
so a 2.8 j .3 is moving @ 448 fps a .36 @ 409 fps a .5 is moving @ 347 fps and a .64 would be 306 fps. Any one who has played against 8mm will tell you they are intimating, they look like a freight train coming @ you, and rightly so as they have about double the surface area of a 6mm. now you have a slower and easer to see BB, more chance of your target seeing the shot and dogging it and or spotting your location.. Hop up and FPS of the projetile are intertwined, the slower its muzzle FPS the less avaibul RPS of back spin and the harder it is to keep the hever BB up"
"let me start off by saying any talk of anything but a round ball with hop up is just plane silly. any one who talks about "fined" projectiles or rifled barrels doesn’t have a firm grasp on the ballistics, end of story. Yes it works well for heavy, fast rounds that have the purpule of killing, not so great on ones you don’t want imbedded in some ones skin. Most of the gain(but not all) comes for the increased weight of the projectile, not the shape. Not something we can really do for safety and eftiviceness reactions.. 200fps 1.5g rounds any one???
it goes in to a very slipery slope. Any yes it has been done before, Asahi "Blade Bullet", RAP4 "airfin", and Masudaya 7mm "long range" are a few examples
the longer cross section is more prone to wind drift, using fins to create gyroscopic stablation after the round leaves the barrel causes range robbing drag and as it takes the round some time to "wind up" it can be inconstant. a 1j gun with the hop up adjusted for flat flight will put about a 1916 revolutions per sec of back spin on a .2. using the engey of the gun to creat the rotation is far cleaner then using the projtiles energy. this of couse leads us to the "why not rifled barrels" argument that allways pops up..
gyroscopic action dosen care what way its spinning, just that it is, and how fast it spins. you hear a lot of 1 in 12 and 1 in 10 twist in RS, thats one roation in blank inches to get the same level of stability on a 1 j .2 you would need a 1 to 2.4 twist, 1 twist every 2.4". thats realy tight and builds up a lot of friction, if you run the Greenhill formula the "ideal" RPS for stability of a .2 would be in the 3050 range, thats 1 twist in 1.3" @ 1J
while an exreatme example think of a nut on a threaded rod, you push down on the nut and nothing happens, even tho it is free to spin.
even if you got it rifled and could spin the BB @ the same RPS , the accuracy would be no different than a hop up one, and the hop has the benefit of extending the eftive range of the gun by providing a flat trajatiory
the fact that if it penetrates the air better (and it does) also means it penetrates skin better and such rounds would have a lower safe muzzle engery than a round ball of the same weight. top this off with the chance of the round striking something in flight an hitting some one back wards with sharp little fins
and most of all, the lack of hop up to give a flat flight path. you end up arcing your shots, realy arcing them, to the tune of the bore angle needing to be put yards above the target. lets mock up a more bolistic round
say 12 mm by 6mm, and bring it down to 4.5mm half sphere @ the tip. call it .43 grams
so a 2.8J gun would shoot it @ 365fps and the "ideal" would be a 1 to 1 twist
no "real" math here as I don't have time to run all the numbers.
but lest "say" its a 33% improvement in its drag vs a round BB .43,
@ 200' it has droped 60 inches (5') and @ 250'+ you are looking @ the very real posabilty of the muzzle of the gun interfering with the line of site on the target
compare that to a BB .43 with hop up that has droped 12" @ 210'
top it off, this round would have about the same skin penetrating effects as a .177 steel bb… not somting ya want to get hit by
the force of gravity is the problem, what ever the projtile is drops @ the same rate (unles Hop up holds it up) it doesn’t matter if its real steel or a plastic "toy" bullet, the range is a pure factor of FPS and engery retention VS gravite
imagine a completely flat field with a 2.8J AS gun and a .50 cal MBG leveled and 60" off the ground and fire them @ the same time
in .8 sec a non hop up .43 and a .50 sniper round will drop the same distance and impact the dirt @ the same time.
The difrance is the .43 traveled 140' and the .50 travled 2400'ish
this example also shows the flaw in the argument that changing the shape for better ballistic coefficient is going to give us great range when compared to hop up. A .43 has 2X the mass and the same drag ratio (well realy less because its flying slower) of a .2 and has droped 60 inches @ 140’ with a 200’ “hit” being out of the question do to the high arc needed to get the bb there, yet a .2 with hop up has only dropped 12” @ 200’ when fired @ the same energy level (2.81J)
lets look @ simuntion as a great example of what a 6mm rifled, conical shaped round would be like as their .223 fits in to an Airsoft ballistic model quite nicely http://www.simunition.com/upload/doc_4.pdf
its a 5.56MM .23 gram shaped projectile fired @ 650ish fps threw a rifled barrel..
the company states the accuracy to be a 16 inch group @ 100',heck even a crapastic Well AEG will do a better group better than that. Following MOA thats a 32" group @ 200'!
and lets be real thats what the company is saying it does, many users of the product will tell you its hard to hit anthing @ 100' in still air, if there is a bit of a breze, forget it.
top all of this of with the fact that’s its fairly easy to do a good polishing job on balls, not so easy on 2mm high fins and outher little bits of cast plastic
keep in mind that buliet shaped rounds gain there higher BC mostly form the increses of weight of the round and only a little in the reduction of over all drag. ie a .50 cal round ball is 179 grains and a 50 BMG round is 668 grains thats 3.7X hevyer but having the same cross section.. i think we can agree we cant shoot 1.5 gram rounds @ each outher very safely, and the realty is going over .36 is a bit much on the safty side
the RPS is so high do to the projetile being so light, and not being able to reatain its engey, the twist rate is so high do to the low FPS
rember guys, its been tryed by people much smarter they you or I, and the end reust has been the same
we have talked about the blade and the airfin, paintball has also tryed it and so has "training" rounds the effect has all ways been the same, no range, no real improvement in accuracy
look @ it this way
a .177 lead pellet has a BC of .02
a .2 bb is .005
a .36 is .010
and a .43 is .012
just out side of the box lets say you could make something that was as good as a lead airgun pellet
imposabul to do safly, but just roll with it
acualy lets say you could shoot .177 airgun pellets as we won't get even close to there BC numbers on anthing "safe' to use, and it will help drive the point home
most are 7.9-8 grains so a nice round .51 grams will do
put that in normal AS power limits (2.81J/550 w/.2s) for snipers and its shooting 344 fps
tossing drag out the window to make a point (we KNOW its a HUGE factor ) and shooting the round in a vacuum it will drop 1 M in 155' purly on gravity, likely 2X that with drag modeled in.
a 250' shot is completely out of the question.. but a .36 (@ 1/2 the BC) with hop up shot @ the same power level with have a high hit probity @ 250' and a flat trajectory alow you to shoot threw gaps in the trees and wory less about over head cover.
I think people forget just how revolutionary the hop up system is.. we can control the amount of spin with a touch of a button to match ammo and shooting conditions, it give us stability, but more importantly lift to add much need range to a very low powered projectile (compared to other air guns)
this + the reduction in drag caused by the bonduray area makes it more or less imposable to be replased do to the needed low power.
we simply cant safely shoot a projectile with a high enuf mass to drag ratio with eunf force to out perform a hoped one
unless personal safety gear is increased
sadly most players would likly be restant to buy new goggles, get full face/head protection, cup, neck guard, etc just so a few sniper can get a few feet more range
the bottom line is yes, round balls have a horrible ballistic coefficient. BUT given the limitations on weapon power for safty reastions the hop up efect over comes most of this and makes it the most suitable ammo type for our sport. I highly dought we will see a "ground breaking" change in our amo style any time soon rember"
"So something smaller than a nerf rocket but larger than an airsoft BB would be ideal"
its called paintball, notice there range sucks..
lastly... most peopel who complain about lack of "range" just cant shoot any were near as well as they think.. long range shooting is a skill that many, even with professorial training, will never master. range estimation and wind drift adjustment are key in bolth AS and RS..
do to the time spent in the barrel shooter movement has a huge infolance in AS, as does how you hold the gun, change your grip, you change the point of inpact.