HK Lawsuits

[sgt.kicker]

Perhaps that isn't a bad thing though.  It could spell doom for several small airsoft companies...but maybe, possibly, the larger companies would survive by licensing their products with the real-steel manufacturers.  And like I said, a small positive of this would be that all airsoft guns would probably then have proper trademarks.

But that'll probably mean much higher prices for rifles.
You're right though. Nothing to do but wait and see.


And I'm sorta glad I didn't wait to buy my second MP5

[XavierMace]

Except they can't go after the manufacturers in most cases, just the retailers and distributors.

[mario1286]

Except they can't go after the manufacturers in most cases, just the retailers and distributors.

Hopefully you're right.  Who knows?  Maybe that will put an end to WalMart selling airsoft guns.

[AirsoftJunkie]

I think the best thing to do would be for H&K to sell their trademark rights to all airsoft manufactures.  That way they make money, have their products advertised, and we could all have liscenced trademarks.  They should just make it so retailers aren't allowed to sell any H&K products until the manufacturers of those products buy the rights.  The only problem I see in this is that Chinese companies would not be able to do legal deals with H&K if they are already operation illegally.  Sorry if this idea was stupid. 

[mario1286]

^ Not stupid at all.  Thats what I was saying; If Hk gets a court desicion saying that airsoft guns designed to look like Hk products must be licensed by Hk themselves, then more than likely all Hk guns from then on would have proper Hk trademarks.  More than likely other real-steel manufacturers would follow suit, and what would result is nearly every Airsoft gun being licensed and trademarked.

Thats in a perfect world though.

[UND34D]

^ Not stupid at all.  Thats what I was saying; If Hk gets a court desicion saying that airsoft guns designed to look like Hk products must be licensed by Hk themselves, then more than likely all Hk guns from then on would have proper Hk trademarks.  More than likely other real-steel manufacturers would follow suit, and what would result is nearly every Airsoft gun being licensed and trademarked.

Thats in a perfect world though.

that would be awesome but that would also mean a real steel company would have a dominate stance in the manufacturing of airsoft guns. that could be aright but they could drive the prices up if they wanted to, theoretically of course. all im saying is that the airsoft manufactures would legally be required to purchase the trades before they can make the gun, thus H&K could get a little greedy and control the price of their trades and that would affect the price of the airsoft guns.
hope that makes sense and i hope i didnt repeat what anyone said.

[mario1286]

^ that could happen in theory.  But then again, all the clone manufaturers in Airsoft could also jack up their prices, and people would pay it.

Also, I don't know if this is applicable, but what do you think the NRA has to say about all of this?  Especially if Hk wins and Airsoft begins to merge with real steel manufacturing.

[TheSmokingMan]

the thing you have to remember is, they ARE entitled to their rights the same as every other real steel manufacturer who is getting cheated by airsoft cloning at the moment.

the central problem is that in the past the licensed stuff hasn't been up to par compared to the unlicensed stuff. there have been improvements, no doubt, but the freedom of choice will certainly be gone

personally I'd like to see a settlement where the status quo as far as choice is maintained while everyone who has a buck coming their way gets theirs.

[mario1286]

I think the only way that will happen is real-steel manufacturers getting some kind of stake in airsoft.

[UND34D]

i mean who knows H&K based guns better that H&K, the realism factor would be awesome, all im worried about is the real steel guys dictating prices.

[TehLlama]

There's been a few different hybridized models of RS manufacturers cooperating with AS makers.

MagPul - best case scenario, they build equipment for both platforms, and license all across.  Downside - they have to deal with chinese companies stealing their actual mold designs.
WilsonCombat, SigArms - very good, they have licensed lines through AS manufacturers, and even link to those from their USA sites.  Downside - through Sig, you can overpay 7x for cybergun junk.
Colt - Mixed.  Companies like Marui obtained Japanese licenses, but stateside the trades had to be removed.  Has been an issue since the 90's, and remains unresolved.  Mix in their Bushmaster/HK suits, and it starts to get fun.
LaRue Tactical - poor mix.  I use LT stuff on my airsoft guns, but 98% of all airsoft stuff with Mark's logo is chinese made stuff that idiots mail to Texas asking for a lifetime warranty replacement.

There IS a difference between using likenesses, and copying trademarks onto a toy gun, and between actually copying molded items, and branding it as an identical item.

I'm sure H&K will reach an amenable agreement with most, and that in the near term the number of vendors willing to stock these items will shrink.  Minor hiccup, but the number of HK based replicas is going to change very little.
Some of those listed above are countersuits, no doubt stating that it's not a retailer's exclusive obligation to deal with this, and the manner HK uses legally tends to be heavyhanded, so neither side is going to be the clear winner anyway.

Since companies like Colt and H&K don't make or liscense any themselves, I don't see how it's cutting into their business, so I assume that this is once again at the behest of another company wanting exclusive use of these trademarks for their own uses, and use the legal system to crowd out any competition here.  The Umarex connection seems valid in this regard (although I have limited experience with anything they make, the .22 M4's of theirs I've seen are frankly terrible, so I'm not holding out much hope)

[mario1286]

When I said that real steel manufacturers get some kind of stake in the production of airsoft, I was thinking more along the lines of manufacturers paying simple royalties for the use of their design/trademarks.

[Compass]

You guys need to see the bigger picture, unfortunately.  H&K selling their trades to all airsoft companies could be a PR nightmare as well.  Imagine what the press would do if it published "H&K supports giving kids access to realistic-looking firearms."

It's not as simple as "hey, it's not stealing our business."  It would make it look like H&K condones making toys as realistically as possible, monetizing toys for firearms production, and so on.  It's amazing none of the currently licensed firearm airsoft replicas have been hit with a media frenzy yet...

[mario1286]

^And that's just it.  The media doesn't report Airsoft unless it's "Idiot kid gets killed because of poor choices with walmart springer".

Just the fact that we, removed parties, know about what's going on between Heckler and Koch and airsoft companies, and that the mainstream media doesn't report it, is proof enough that they probably don't care.  They have many other issues to feed the public with instead of confusing copyright legal proceedings over toy guns.

[gunfighters]

there has been a lot of fouse on "trade marks", but rember trade marks aren't just a companys name, in many cases with a distinctive look product (glock,AR/MP5), the "look" of the product is also trademarked, and in many cases the airsoft guns go so far as patent infringement on some of the parts
companys are looking out for there futures by enforcing there rights
just think how difrent a world we would live in if TM had been able to stop the coping of there gear boxes

[Booligan]

^Exactly. I have copies of several of the similar federal complaints that HK has filed in the last month and they're not focusing on the Trade MARKS, they're focusing on the Trade DRESS, which is just that, the cosmetic "look" of the thing. Now, there are some contingencies and I've seen several of the countersuits against H&K and their arguments which look pretty good and actually use H&K's ideology against them, the whole "function over form" bit.


Now, I'm seeing a lot of massive amounts of pointless speculation which don't even apply to these suits by our local armchair lawyers, which is always fun, but let's not cause a panic.

The things most of you guys are worrying about aren't even an issue, and the things that you SHOULD be worrying about you aren't even acknowledging, lol.  It'll be interesting to see how these suits play out.

That being said, as I'm kind of in a position where I have information that may or may not be kosher for public eyes, I'll continue just to watch, which is honestly what everyone here should be doing. We're in uncharted legal waters here and there's no guaranteed way that this will play out, so we need to stop speculating and just watch it go. It's not in our hands.

[mario1286]

Why should we stop speculating?  Isn't that what a forum is for, discussion?

But I do agree with what you're saying about them focusing on trade dress.  In any case, I still stand by my position in that whatever happens, I doubt any of us will seriously be affected.  Will airsoft from a legal standpoint change?  Maybe.  Does that mean companies all over the world will shut down?  No way.  Whatever happens the proper legal steps will be taken, and we can continue on enjoying our airsoft products, I'm sure of it.

[Booligan]

Why should we stop speculating?  Isn't that what a forum is for, discussion?

Discussion, yes. Rash assumptions leading to bad information getting spread, furthermore causing people to make bad decisions, which is where I see this headed? No, that's not what THIS forum is for.

So, carry on the discussion everyone, but let's cool down the rampant assumptions.

[TremL96]

I agree with Booligan. I think I'll just sit this discussion out and see what happen. Us talking about what happens won't make it happens. And we've pretty much just kept going over and over the same stuff, so we aren't guessing anything new. It took you guys 14½ hours to write 2 pages (43 posts) on this discussion. I find it all useless. And as for the fact that some of you will say that you are 'talking about what could happen to be prepared if it  does happen', I don't really see the point in that either. What are you going to do? Break into your life savings and buy as many guns as you can before prices go up, if they do? To tell you the truth, it doesn't matter what happens. **** happens. Life goes on. If something does happen to airsoft that makes the sport too expensive, or illegal (other discussion but still) there's other hobbies. Not saying I don't love airsoft (it's addicting.....), but I'm saying if something does happen that is out of our hands, then we will have to live with it and cope with it. My two cents.

[Airsoft Unlimited, FL]

Does anyone know what companies Thomas Li and Kenneth Chang own?

[XavierMace]

Thomas Li, import-action.com

Kenneth Chang, I can't find anything concrete on but he MAY be an HK retailer/wholesaler in which case this is worse that we thought.

[WalmartSniper]

Im still convinced that this will not end up in H&Ks favor.  The biggest thing that SCREAMS to me that H&K is just trying to bully people around is the fact that they are going after websites that sell second hand firearms.  Which in NO way is any kind of violation at all.  I cant remember the website that reported this, but a number of sites that link online auctions for RS second hand firearms were getting cease and desist letters from H&K for violating trade mark laws.

I would also contest that an AS manufacturer which does not put H&K trademarks on their replicas, and who doesnt use the H&K names is in violation.  XavierMace will disagree with me here, but Trade Dress only applies to NON-FUNCTIONING images, shapes, colors, marks and packaging that identifies a brand to a consumer.

"To gain registration in the Principal Register or common law protection under the Lanham Act, a trade dress must not be “functional.” That is, the configuration of shapes, designs, colors, or materials that make up the trade dress in question must not serve a utility or function outside of creating recognition in the consumer’s mind."
- Wikipedia, from the Lanham Act

"For example, even though consumers associated a distinct spring design for wind resistant road signs with a particular company, the spring design was not protectable for trade dress purposes because the springs served the function of withstanding heavy wind conditions."
- Wikipedia, from TrafFix Devices, Inc. v. Marketing Displays, Inc., 523 U.S. 23 (2001)

I do not think that the shape of the firearms in question would qualify.  I also would speculate that any patents that H&K might have wouldnt apply here, as any part of an airsoft replica is modified heavily from the original design, and that it would certainly meet the minimum changes necessary to not be infringing.  Furthermore, to win any kind of trademark/trade dress lawsuit, the prosecution would have to prove that not only did the manufacturers/retailers in question were intentionally trying to mislead consumers into believing that the products in question were either manufactured or licensed by H&K, that they (H&K) had suffered losses because of this, but also that the trademark or trade dress was instantly recognizable by the average consumer, which in my mind, would mean putting an H&K weapon in a lineup with several other weapons and asking a panel of jurors which one was manufactured by H&K.  As you could take almost anyone off the street, show them a lineup of soup cans (without brand names on them) and they would easily be able to identify which one was a Campbells Soup can (based on the simple red and white design that is the "Campbells" design).  Anyway, that is my thoughts on the subject, and the research I have done about it.  But we will see what happens, Im just glad I already have my JG MK36K 

[EagleDriver]

I don't get why ASGI had to rename their CA MP5's.  Those are liscensed replicas of the B&T MP5's, so they should be safe.

This is just because Brugger & Thomet markets theirs as a BT5 and TP5, not MP5.

[gunfighters]

wallmart, those web site also sell airsoft guns.
rember what is not covered by "trade dress" is the covered by pattent.. and gock has sucessfull had there trade dress/copywrited shape (look of the gun) upheld in 2005 becuses form follows function. and the function clause id to avoid trade dress becoming a form of pattent (as its easer to get)

frankly HK has a lot of ground to stand on..  "you" (players in genural) bought the mp5/mk23 because it LOOKED like a MP5/MK23..all AS guns more or less function the same, so you bought the product based on its patented/trademarked look, that means some one is making money on HK property rights.

"Furthermore, to win any kind of trademark/trade dress lawsuit, the prosecution would have to prove that not only did the manufacturers/retailers in question were intentionally trying to mislead consumers into believing that the products in question were either manufactured or licensed by H&K, that they (H&K) had suffered losses because of this"
no
it much like copywrite infringment. ie with copywrite (somthing done daily on the net) you only have to prove it happend.. pay out starts @ $10,000 and no loss has to be proved.

[Millerha]

frankly HK has a lot of ground to stand on..  "you" (players in genural) bought the mp5/mk23 because it LOOKED like a MP5/MK23..all AS guns more or less function the same, so you bought the product based on its patented/trademarked look, that means some one is making money on HK property rights.

I don't know about that. When is the last time you heard of a professional army or a law enforcement agency putting in a large order of G36's from ASGI or AA? Only to find that all they received were a bunch of plastic replicas.

I honestly don't think this is will go to far unless H&K can actually prove that airsoft guns with their trademarks are actually hurting their firearms sales.